This is a hastily produced transcript. The copy may not be final.
Amy GoodmanTeamsters President Sean O’Brien asked if he could speak at both conventions. The Republican National Convention gave him permission. Here is what Sean O’Brien said:
Sean O’Brien: Another fact is that individual workers have no power against giant multinational corporations. Only when Americans organize into democratic labor unions can we achieve real improvements in wages, benefits, and working conditions. Companies like Amazon are larger than the economies of most countries.
Amy GoodmanSo this is Sean O’Brien, chairman of the Teamsters. Dana Mattioli, you’re the author of a new book, “The Everything War: Amazon’s Ruthless Quest to Own the World and Remake Corporate Power.” Talk to us about what Sean O’Brien was talking about, and talk about the power of Amazon in the world, in terms of Republicans, in terms of Democrats.
Dana MattioliSean O’Brien is right: Amazon’s sales are larger than the GDP of many countries. My book documents in detail how Amazon grew from an unlikely garage start-up to the most dominant company in American business history — a modern-day Standard Oil — and how it used illegal, unethical and anti-competitive tactics to dominate one industry after another, impacting the economy, job creation, unemployment, bankruptcies and innovation.
Amazon has had a very difficult history with both Republicans, particularly Donald Trump, and Democrats. You know, Biden has been very tough on Amazon. He appointed Lina Khan to be the chair of the Federal Trade Commission, the agency that oversees Amazon. And she filed this historic monopoly lawsuit against Amazon last year. So, Amazon has had this scorched earth tactic on government relations and public relations, and that’s making them enemies in both parties.
Amy Goodman: So why did you decide to write a book on Amazon?
Dana Mattioli: Yes, I was a mergers and acquisitions reporter at The Wall Street Journal. And in that role, over the course of six years, I noticed that retail CEOs were initially nervous about Amazon. By the time I left M&A after six years, CEO Most people I spoke to were nervous about Amazon. CEOs in industrial, healthcare, logistics all feared Amazon. In corporate America’s boardrooms, Amazon was held up as a source of fear. People thought Amazon was going to take their profits and take their business.
And I wanted to get to the bottom of how they had risen from industry to industry to be number one, number one, number two, number three in 12 different industries. And as I began to research the company, I found a plethora of business practices that were driven by Amazon’s toxic culture, where the company lied, spied, and cheated its way to the top. And I thought this book would be the perfect vehicle to expose those tactics and show consumers, Americans, people all over the world, why it seems like Amazon always wins. And in a lot of cases, it’s because Amazon has its finger on the scales.
Amy Goodman: And I want to talk about a controversial figure, someone who’s a hot topic in the Democratic Party right now. I want to ask you about Lina Khan, the current chairwoman of the Federal Trade Commission, who is featured in your book about Amazon. Last year, the FTC and 17 states sued Amazon, alleging that it illegally stifled competition. In May, Khan was asked about Amazon in an interview on ABC’s “This Week with Jonathan Karl.”
Jonathan curl: You’ve obviously become famous by talking about the threat of Amazon as a de facto monopoly power. In what ways is Amazon a monopoly? You can shop on Amazon, but you can also walk down the street and shop at Walmart or Target. So in what ways is Amazon a monopoly?
Lina KhanSome ways you can tell a company is a monopoly is that the company also behaves in ways that treat customers unfairly.
Jonathan curl: Why?
Lina Khan: The fees that Amazon charges small businesses have increased dramatically over the past few years, and some small businesses now have to pay Amazon $1 of every $2 they pay — essentially a 50% Amazon tax. Our lawsuit also alleges that Amazon has used a series of secret algorithms to secretly raise prices for consumers, and we allege that Amazon has used a series of illegal tactics to get away with this and make it harder for rival e-commerce sites to launch, enter the market and compete.
Amy GoodmanThat was Federal Trade Commission Chair Lina Khan. Dana, your book begins with what one source calls “the most important law review article written in our lifetimes.” This is a reference to an article that Lina Khan wrote in 2017, headlined “Amazon’s Antitrust Paradox,” and published in the Yale Law Journal. Lina Khan argued that Amazon is a monopoly that has “evaded government oversight.”
Media mogul Barry Diller and LinkedIn co-founder Reid Hoffman, major Democratic donors, have publicly called for Kamala Harris to be removed from office. FTC Chair Lina Khan has led Biden’s antitrust efforts, as has Kamela Harris if president, and Hoffman serves on the board of directors of Microsoft. FTCHoffman was recently interviewed by CNN’s Jake Tapper.
Jake Tupperware: Thanks for joining us. So you and other big donors are funding VP Harris and even offering her the presidency. FTCwhich has implications for policy and the economy. What do you say to people who look at this and say, “The rich buy influence, that’s not how American politics should be”?
Lead Hoffman: Well, I completely agree with you on not buying influence. I separate my role as a donor and as an expert. So if you ask me as a donor, I would say, I will donate to Kamala Harris because I think she is the best future president for the United States, for business and many other things. If you ask me as an expert, what is Lina Khan doing and do I think she is helping or hurting the United States in terms of your anti-merger policies, which are mostly to litigate, and if you ask me on a really solid basis, what is happening right now and what would help U.S. companies thrive at home and abroad, then I would give my opinion as an expert. But I think donors and experts should be kept separate, and I have never combined the two in any conversation I have had.
Amy GoodmanBillionaire donor Reid Hoffman donated $10 million to help elect Kamala Harris as president. Dana Mattioli, what’s your reaction to that and the significance of the push now being made to fire Lina Khan?
Dana Mattioli: Yes, Lina Khan CEO In the industry, especially in the technology industry, CEOs and venture capitalists FTC Under Lina Khan, she was very critical of them, she investigated their companies very closely, they filed lawsuits against all the big four technology companies. Department of Justice and FTCand other companies. So it’s not surprising. But Biden was a big supporter of hers.
The big question mark is what Kamala would do if she were to become president. Interestingly, this is another area of agreement. JD Vance is a big fan of Lina Khan, and so is Matt Gaetz. I mean, there are very right-leaning Republicans who are fans of her. They call themselves the “Khanservatives.” So, no matter which administration takes office, the fate of Lina Khan and how that will impact antitrust-level regulation is a big question mark.
Amy Goodman: So what do you think the fate of Amazon is? There was just a big lawsuit against Google where they ruled them a monopoly. What do you think will happen to Amazon?
Dana MattioliGoogle’s lawsuit: Department of JusticeThe Justice Department’s victory bodes very well for Amazon. FTCThe trial won’t take place until 2026, so there’s plenty of time to see what happens before then. FTC If this case wins, it could have lasting effects for the company. It could potentially unravel the fabric of Amazon in some ways, and it could question whether its retail operations are tied to its logistics division or other areas where it can make cuts. So depending on how the dice roll, this could be a truly historic event.
Amy Goodman: So you’re saying that breaking up Amazon really bodes well for Amazon?
Dana Mattioli: Well, I think that bodes very well for the FTC case.
Amy Goodman: Well, I want to thank Dana Mattioli so much for joining us today. She’s the author of a new book, “The Everything War: Amazon’s Ruthless Quest to Own the World and Remake Corporate Power.” Dana is a senior reporter at The Wall Street Journal. I’ll link to your article, “Inside Elon Musk’s hands-on effort to win over 800,000 voters to Trump.”
Joining us next in our New York studio is the well-known Palestinian pastor from Bethlehem, Rev. Munter Isaac, who will be giving an important speech tonight at the historic Riverside Church. Please join us.
